The 1949 Yangtze Incident.
COVER UP
To-day in this present day and age 2009 as we approach
the 60th anniversary of the 1949 Yangtze Incident, a
ships-compliment that was involved in that now known as the 1949 Yangtze
Campaign, has still never been recognised in the British Award system for
the part they and the ship H.M.S. CONCORD, played when ordered to go to the
assistance of H.M.S. Amethyst, in a ‘civil war zone’ within Chinas,
territorial waters, 30th and 31st July 1949.
Within the Churchill Archives Centre, Cambridge under Reference; GBR/0014/DKNS
there are 5 boxes Papers and naval signals concerning the “Amethyst
Incident” and the writings of Rear Admiral Sir David Scott. The collection
was deposited at the Churchill Archives Centre by the Rear Admiral, in July
1992, September 2002, and in June 2003.
The files arranged in two sub-fonds due to their apparent creation and who
they were created by. DKNS I all relate to the “Amethyst Incident” and DKNS
II were all written by David Scott. Here I add the fact that the collection
has been catalogued and copies of the catalogue are available at the
Churchill Archives Centre, At the Historical Manuscripts Commission and on
the Janus, website.
The files within DKNS I, relating to the “Amethyst Incident” are the naval signals that were towing and fro-wing from the C-in-C, Far East Station, on-board H.M.S. Belfast, to H.M.S. Concord and H.M.S. Amethyst, on the 30th and 31st July 1949. Also among those papers there is the telegram that was sent by H.B.M. Ambassador, Sir Ralph Stevenson, G.C.M.G., Stationed at the British Embassy, Nanking, to the following sources on the 31st July 1949; The Foreign Office, the C-in-C, Far East Station, Singapore, Hong Kong, Shanghai Embassy Office, and Canton. The first item listed on that telegram for its terms therein I now quote; * “(a) No repeat no publicity should be given to the fact that H.M. Ship Concord entered Chinese territorial waters.”* Unquote.
Rear Admiral, Sir David Scott, K.B.E. CB., who was (born 5th April 1921) and was, at the time of the 1949 ‘Amethyst Incident’ Flag-Lieutenant to the Commander-in-Chief of the Far East Station, Admiral Sir Patrick Brind, K.C.B. CBE. Scott was later Chief of Staff to Flag Officer Submarines and Chief of the British Navy Staff in Washington D.C. He then held the post of Deputy Controller (Polaris) 1973 – 1976 and from 1976 until his retirement in 1980 he was Chief Polaris Executive KBE, CB. He died in January 2006.
In my opinion when Rear Admiral Sir David Scott, in July 1992, September 2002 and June 2003 was depositing his collection of papers and naval signals within the Churchill Archives Centre, he was planting the irrefutable evidence that was and is capable of blowing away and putting paid to the “OPERATION MINCEMEAT” type job that was made applicable to cover up the wrongful acts and omission that caused and brought about the 1949 Yangtze Incident in the first instance.
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After the incident occurred on Chinas, Yangtze River, 20th April 1949, six days later on the 26th April 1949 Britain’s, then Prime Minister, Mr Clement Attlee, made a statement within the House of Commons, concerning the incident, from that statement I now quote * “ It has been repeatedly stated in this House that our policy has been governed by the Moscow Declaration of December 1945, in which the United Kingdom, the United States and the Soviet Union declared a policy of non-intervention in China’s internal affairs. In view of the considerable British interests in China and of the presence of large British communities, His Majesty’s Government decided some months ago that His Majesty’s Ambassador and His Majesty’s Consular Officers in China should remain at their posts and the Foreign Secretary announced this to the House on 9th December.
We are not alone in the decision to remain at Nanking. Other powers represented there, with the exception of the Soviet Union, reached the same decision, and there has since been full consultation between the members of the Diplomatic Corps at Nanking.
In the disturbed conditions, which have prevailed in recent months, warships of various Powers have been at Shanghai and Nanking so that in the event of a break down of law and order as a result of hostilities they would be able to assist in the evacuation of their nationals. When the Chinese Government decide to move to Canton, it is true that a warning was issued about warships in the Yangtze. Nevertheless, it is a fact that since that time the movement of our warships in the Yangtze have taken place with the full knowledge and consent of the National Government of China.
I want to make the point therefore that when the incident took place to which I am about to refer, HMS AMETHYST was proceeding on her lawful occasions and that there was no other properly constituted authority to whom His Majesty’s Government were under an obligation to notify her movements even had they been in a position to do so.” * Unquote.
(Note); “from early April, 1949 the Nationalist Government of China ceased to control both banks of the Yangtze River. However the new regime the north bank of the river the Communist Authorities, with its Peoples Liberation Army, on the 9th April 1949 broadcast their intention to interdict the river to “all shipping.”
Further to that quoted above Clement Attlee, in his statement to the House of Commons covers the part played by H.M.S Consort, that also I now quote; *“ Thus early on 19th April, the frigate HMS Amethyst (Lieutenant- Commander Skinner) sailed from Shanghai for Nanking, wearing the White Ensign and the Union Jack painted on her hull.
When the Amethyst had reached a point on the Yangtze River some 60 miles from Nanking, at about nine o’clock in the morning on the 20th, Chinese time, she came under heavy fire from batteries on the north bank, suffered considerable damage and casualties and eventually grounded on Rose Island. After this the Captain decided to land about sixty of her crew, including her wounded, who got ashore by swimming or in sampans, being shelled and machine-gunned as they did so; we know that a large proportion have, with Chinese help, arrived at Shanghai.
Vice Admiral Madden, the Flag Officer, second in command, Far East Station, ordered the Destroyer HMS CONSORT (Commander Robertson) from Nanking to go to the AMETHYST’S assistance, and the frigate HMS BLACKSWAN (Captain Jay) from Shanghai to Kiang Yin, 40 miles down river from the AMETHYST. CONSORT reached the AMETHYST at about three in the afternoon and was immediately heavily engaged. She found the fire too hot to approach AMETHYST and therefore passed her at speed down river. She turned two miles below and again closed AMETHYST to take her in tow. But again she came under such heavy fire that she was obliged to abandon the attempt, although she answered the shore batteries with her full armament and signalled that she had silenced most of the opposition. Half an hour latter her signals ceased, though she was making a second attempt to take the AMETHYST in tow, having turned downstream again. This attempt also failed and she sustained further damage and casualties during which her steering was effected. She therefore had to continue downstream out of the firing area.”* Unquote.
At the time of Attlee, making that statement, 26th April 1949 three of the ships involved in the incident, H.M.S. Consort, London and Black Swan, were by then in their shell damaged condition at Shanghai, the frigate Amethyst, remained captive on the Yangtze River. A muzzle under the guise of the official secretes act was placed upon the ratings that made up the ships companies of the three ships, Consort, London and Black Swan, to prevent them talking about the incident. The human cost to the four ships was 46 dead 68 wounded.
Within the House of Commons, the House of Lords and throughout the length and breadth of Britain, in April 1949 the burning question was; how could such an incident occur at a time when this nation was at peace, why had it happened? Who was to blame? In Shanghai, the main interest of the news media that had gathered there amounted to finding out the origin of the munitions that had damaged the ships.
Let’s now look again at what was specifically stated by Prime Minister, Clement Attlee, in making his statement to the House of Commons, 26th April 1949 begins by stating; “It has been repeatedly stated in this that our policy has been governed by the Moscow Declaration of December 1945 in which the United Kingdom, the United States and the Soviet Union declared a policy of None intervention in China’s internal affairs.”
Now let’s look at some other post war notes that Prime Minister, Attlee, did not bring to the attention of the House, on the 26th April 1949 post war notes touching on the history and sale of H.M.S. Aurora, an ARETHUSA-Class light cruiser, being posted below is a photograph of H.M.S. Aurora.
In November of 1945 it was announced that the above shown ship was being sold to China. As such, the ship made passage from Trieste and paid off at Portsmouth 17th April 1946. At Portsmouth, the ship then underwent a refit and was renamed CHUNGKING when it was handed over to the Chinese Nationalist Navy, on 19th May 1948 at a time when China, was involved in its own civil war.
Shortly after being commissioned the Nationalists ships compliment on-board the CHUNGKING defected taking the ship with them to the new Communist government where the ships name was changed to TCHOUNKING the TCHOUNKING was sunk in an air attack on Yaku, harbour by Nationalist, aircraft in March 1949.
Another important point that Prime Minister, Attlee, omitted to mention in his statement of 26th April 1949 was that from early April 1949 the Chinese Nationalist Government were no longer in control of both banks of the Yangtze River so therefore it was no longer the prerogative of the Nationalist to grant passage to shipping on the Yangtze River.
Further to that, on the 9th April 1949 the new regime on the north bank of the river, the Communist authorities broadcast that they would interdict the river to all shipping and it was presumed that this would be done by gunfire from the north bank, if necessary.
That was a reasonable military precaution, being that the Communist authorities had given notice and the prescribed dates of their intended crossing of the Yangtze River, in the ensuing civil war against Nationalists.
It was at that time that H.M.S. Consort, was stationed at Nanking, and due to be relieved by the Australian, warship H.M.A.S. Shoalhaven, however the Australian, Diplomatic Service, took cognizance of the overall situation that existed and took steps to have the H.M.A.S. Shoalhaven, stood down.
With the Shoalhaven being stood down, as it was the Flag Officer Second-in-Command, Far East Station, Vice-Admiral, A.C.G. Madden, C.B., C.B.E., gave the order to the Captain, of H.M.S. Black Swan, to have H.M.S. Amethyst, make ready to take the place of H.M.A.S. Shoalhaven. These events took place at a time when the Commander-in-Chief, Far East Station, Admiral Sir E. J. Patrick Brind, K.C.B., C.B.E., was absent from the station.
Here again I return to opening part of Prime Minister, Attlee’s statement to the House of Commons where he states; “It has been repeatedly stated in this House that our policy has been governed by the Moscow Declaration of December 1945 in which the United Kingdom, the United States and the Soviet Union declared a policy of none intervention in Chinas internal affairs.” Here below is a photograph of H.M.S. Mendip a, Type 1, Hunt-class Escort Destroyer.
This ship was sold to China and recommissioned for passage on 21st January 1948. Formally transferred and renamed LIN FU the ship remained part of the Chinese Nationalists Navy until being reposed and returned to RN control on 29th May 1949 after the National Government of China, fell. By June of that year she had been transferred to the Far East Fleet and deployed as a replacement for H.M destroyer CONSORT which was under refit.
Being posted here below is a photograph of H.M.S. Consort, in dry-dock at Singapore under going the refit that’s been referred to above.
The material and expertise required to repair the ship had to be sent out from the UK., and whilst H.M.S. Consort, was undergoing those repairs the ships company of Consort, were used to commission, the repossessed H.M.S. Mendip, which was, after being cleaned up from the filthy condition it was in, sent on a patrol tour of Malay and Borneo.
Back now to that part of this story where Flag Officer, Second-in-Command, Vice Admiral, A.C.G. Madden, gave the order to the Captain of the H.M.S. Black Swan, to have the frigate H.M.S Amethyst, make ready to take the place of the stood down Australian, warship H.M.A.S. Shoalhaven, but first, another little item that there was no mention of in Attlee’s, statement to the House of Commons, 26th April 1949 a little item that Vice Admiral, Madden, would most certainly have been aware of, that item was a standing order that had been put in place by the Admiralty, and was to the effect; that because of the disturbed condition which prevailed, on the Yangtze River, all British warships making passage-way on that river would remain at the stood-too position in order to respond, in a defensive action only, if fired upon from the North bank of the river.
It was upon the orders of Vice Admiral, A.C.G. Madden, that H.M.S. Amethyst, entered Chinas, Yangtze River, on the morning of 19th April 1949 then in the late afternoon of that date Amethyst, anchored at Kiang Yin, and it was there Lieutenant-Commander Bernard Morland Skinner, the ships Captain, spoke to the ships compliment, informing them that; the Chinese Communists were dug in along the north bank and they had already shelled the Nationalists on the Kiang Yin, side of the river. Amethyst was in the fighting zone.
At dusk, Nationalist gunboats signaled the Amethyst, to darken ship.
Next morning at dawn 20th April 1949 H.M.S. Amethyst, was again on her way up river and an hour later after leaving Kiang Yin, a fog had settled on the river obscuring both banks of the river, as such the Chinese river pilots insisted upon the anchor being dropped. By seven thirty the heat from the sun was dispersing the fog and Amethyst got on its way again.
An hour later, at half past eight, as a result of intelligence information that had been given to Lieutenant Commander, Skinner, at Hong Kong, he was able to calculate that Amethyst, was approaching a Communist held section on the north bank of the river that was heavily armed. That’s when the order was given to increase Amethysts, speed from a hundred and eighty to two hundred and sixty revolutions, ‘the time was half past eight’. Amethysts economical cruising speed of eleven knots was being increased to sixteen knots, while passing the Communist Gun Battery positions.
It was at that sector on the river that a salvo of shots passed over and fell around the Amethyst, without causing damage to the ship or injury to personnel, which allows for the question; were they the warning shots of, ‘stop and state your business !!??’
Amethysts response to that salvo of shells was in the form of three orders being given,
“Both engines full ahead”, “Unfurl, Union Jacks down the ships side”, “Director, get on target”, the first two orders were carried out, the third wasn’t, Amethysts main armament remained in the fore and aft position.
At twenty minutes past nine as Amethyst, was approaching another Chinese Peoples liberation Army gun battery installation, on a point of land called San-chiang-ying, which was in close proximity to Rose Island, on the Yangtze River.
There, another shell from a Chinese Peoples Liberation Army, gun battery passed over Amethyst, and once again the order given on-board Amethyst, was, both engines full-ahead.
No sooner than that order having been obeyed, shells hit the ships wheelhouse and bridge, and it was those hits that more or less caused the Amethysts, grounding on Rose Island, where this copy of her “Flash Signal” being shown below was sent out
The signal was picked up by H.M.S. Consort, at Nanking, on the Yangtze River, and was immediately delivered to the British Ambassador there, who in turn immediately made contacted, with the Communist authorities requesting a cease fire.
However when Amethysts, Flash Signal, was picked up and delivered to Vice Admiral, Madden, he immediately ordered H.M.S. Consort, to go to the assistance of the Amethyst, which in turn meant, that Consort, without, express permission of either the Chinese Nationalist, or Communist Authorities, having been sought or provided, was ordered by Vice Admiral, Madden, into the war zone in Chinas, ensuing civil war, and he done so whilst purporting to perform his duties as an Officer, of the Crown.
H.M.S. Consort, upon approaching the sector on the river, where Amethyst, had grounded, was engaged by the gun emplacements of the Chinese Peoples Liberation army, and for over two hours fought a running battle while making three valiant efforts to take the Amethyst, in tow. A rating from on-board H.M.S. Consort, did manage to land a line on-board the Amethyst, but there was no one on the upper and open decks of Amethyst, to pick up that line.
Now there is a prolific statement that might be cause for concern to some; “there was no one on the upper and open decks of Amethyst, to pick up that line.” So here is a little item that’s has also been excluded in the telling of the story, Yangtze Incident, and it comes in the written words of an eye witness to an event, the witness being the late Dr Wedderburn, a Scottish surgeon. “I was sitting in my office when a man from the Consulate came in. He told briefly about what was known and asked if I was willing to fly to Nanking and go to the Amethyst from there.In the early afternoon I was at Lung Hwa airfield boarding a US Air Force B -25 known in the RAF as a Mitchell. I sat in the right hand seat alongside the pilot. The sun shone out of the cloudless sky on the green fields of the delta as the plane climbed away. After half an hour we picked up the broad, brown, Yangtze river, navigable by ocean-going ships for five hundred miles past Nanking to Hankow. Flying at a couple of thousand feet, the peaceful scene unfolded with our progress. We could see the trench system, gun posts and strong points of the Nationalists on the bank. At intervals of a few miles a gunboat was moored close to the southern bank. They looked very unwarlike with there guns at rest and not trained northwards: washing was strung above the decks.
Suddenly a vessel appeared in midstream. From her crosstrees on each side flew a great white flag, and from her foremast a long white pennant stretched tautly aft beyond her stern, held stiffly by the speed of her going. It was the destroyer Consort going at maximum speed. Seldom does a destroyer work up to full revs in peacetime, and never on a river. A magnificent bow wave creamed back as far as the bridge: the wash spread in broad white lines across the muddy surface to crash far astern on the banks. Her guns fore and aft were pointed hard to port, flames and smoke erupting from them. Great splashes rose in the river. Ann occasional explosion erupted on the south bank from an overshoot, but most of the shell splashes were several hundred yards astern. Consort was doing the impossible running the gauntlet of a narrow channel against hostile, hidden, shore batteries, unable to turn or maneuver. All she could do was to cram on every ounce of speed and fire back at guns unknown until they opened fire. We circled two times, saw the blue sky, green fields, grey destroyer with her foaming bow wave, dazzling white pennants, angry red gun flashes, shell splashes, black smoke streaming back from the funnels and the yellow water of the Yangtze.
I thought of her commander on the bridge, the gunnery officer
laying her guns, the crew working like fiends, the engineers hammering her
engines to near breaking point.
The starboard wing of the Mitchell swept up to a vertical. I saw
the pilot holding the stick hard over as he executed a violent diving turn
to pull out almost at ground level. “The aim of this mission is to get you
to Nanking, doctor, is it not?” “I guess so.” “That little bit of
acrobatics was when the bullets started to hit us,” said the pilot, pointing
to some holes which had appeared in the wing. We climbed and picked the
river again where it made a bend to the south. There was Amethyst. She lay
with her bow aground listing to starboard. She seemed to simmer in the sun,
motionless, out of action, crippled, a total contrast to the destroyer. The
pilot said we would make one pass. Turning away to gain height, he came
round in a circle and put the nose down heading for Amethyst. There was no
one on deck, no one looked up or waved. Then she was gone under the belly of
the aircraft.
The
Mitchell braked to a stop in front of the control tower at the empty
airport. As, I shock hands with the pilot he said to me. Well, you and I are
the only guys who have ever seen that sight and I reckon we are the only
ones who ever will.” A jeep took me to the Embassy where the naval attaché,
a captain, asked me what I had seen. Consort was terrific. I could see no
signs of damage or any hits. Most of the splashes were miles out.” “Great.”
He said. We think she should be all right. She is well past the place where
they started firing on Amethyst,”
I was wrong. Consort had received many hits, mostly in her
upper work. Fortunately most of the shells were incorrectly fused and many
went right through without exploding. We went back to a truck where a
colonel was standing. He showed me the medical supplies and equipment loaded
on it. We were climbing in when a sergeant ran up. The Communists had
started to cross the Yangtze some twenty-four hours before the expiration of
the armistice. We all went back to the Embassy and stood conferring in the
naval office. It was decided to abandon the attempt to reach Amethyst as
night was approaching.”
Note: - From the beginning of page eight to this point everything related took place on the 20th April 1949 so for a moment lets take up another point that was made by Mr. Attlee, in his statement to the House of Commons 26th April 1949, I quote * “In the disturbed conditions which have prevailed in recent months, warships of various Powers have been at Shanghai and Nanking so that in the event of a breakdown of law and order as a result of hostilities they would be able to assist in the evacuation of their nationals.” *Unquote.
How did that rhetoric escape those assembled within the House of Commons without being questioned or challenged, when Mr., Attlee, thereafter in relating to the part played by H.M.S Consort, in his public statement states; * “ Vice-Admiral Madden, the Flag Officer, second-in-command, Far East Station, ordered the destroyer H.M.S. CONSORT, (Commander Robertson) from Nanking to go to AMETHYAST’s assistance, and the frigate HMS BLACK SWAN (Captain Jay) from Shanghai to Kiang Yin, forty miles down river from the Amethyst.”*
What this meant was that by ordering H.M.S. Consort, to go to H.M.S. Amethyst, assistance, there was no ship stationed at Nanking, for or in the event of British nationals having to be evacuated. However because of the order given by Admiral Madden, that Mr. Attlee, related to in his statement there was in the Nationalist held port of Kiang Yin, in the Yangtze River on the evening of 20th April 1949 three Royal navy warships, the Destroyer H.M.S. Consort, the frigate H.M.S. Black Swan, and the County Class Cruiser H.M.S. London.
When
H.M.S. London, arrived at Kiang Yin, both the Consort, and Black Swan, went
along side of the London, some of the wounded from Consort, were transferred
on to the London, for emergency medical attention and through out the night
emergency repairs were being made to the Consort, to provide the ship with
reasonably safe passage to Shanghai, the next day.
At a meeting on-board H.M.S. London, it was decided by the
Second-in-Command, Far East Station, Admiral Madden, that the Frigate H.M.S.
Black Swan, would accompany the County Class Cruiser, H.M.S. London, up the
Yangtze River to where Amethyst, had grounded, neither the Black Swan or the
London, got to within thirty miles of the Amethyst, before having to retire
from the affray both ships were caught up in. The humane cost to the Royal
Navy 20th and 21st April 1949 was 46 dead and 68
wounded.
Being posted here is a photograph of H.M.S. Amethyst that was taken on its arrival at Hong Kong, following what has been termed as its epic escape from where it had been held hostage on the Yangtze River.
Within the area that I took the liberty of encircling is one of H.M.S. Amethysts, secondary armament gun sponsons and as can be seen there is no gun mounted upon the sponson. The reason being, that when the ship was ordered into the Yangtze River in the first instance, its secondary armament was lying in some dockyard shed.
Because that fact was not picked up on, here below is the brain-washing propaganda stunt that in the film production Yangtze Incident, in a scene where an actor portraying the young Lieutenant Hett, is seen standing in front of a Boffer, gun crew that’s at the stood to position.
Here below is a photograph of H.M.S. Amethyst that was taken at dawn in the in the morning of 31st July 1949 during the course of its escape from the Yangtze River.
This photograph of H.M.S. Amethyst was taken with a brownie camara from on –board H.M.S. Concord, at a location that was in close proximity to the Woosung Forts, on the Yangtze River.
On the photograph, the Union Jack, that was un-furled down the ships side on the 20th April, 1949 when shots were first fired over and around the Amethyst, is still in position, And if you look closely to the right of the empty derricks above the Union Jack, you can just make out the empty gun sponson protruding above that termed the ships-wing.
The next two photographs being shown below were again taken inside the mouth of the Yangtze Estuary, while oil fuel and stores were being transferred from H.M.S. Concord, on to H.M.S. Amethyst, on the morning of 31st July 1949 at the time of that transfer taking place, H.M.S. Amethyst, only had the equivalent of seven ton of oil fuel left on board, which ment she had the equivalent two to three nautical miles of steaming power left in her boiler room engines.
And here is another photograph, taken from on-board H.M.S. Concord, whilst escorting the Amethyst, out of the Yangtze River, 31st July 1949.
This next photograph is a port side stern view of H.M.S. Concord the photograph was taken on the morning of 31st July 1949.
The land fall that can be seen in the back ground is an island that’s well within the Yangtze Estuary, and note; ‘the calmness of the water’.What you see in the above picture is the stood down, Y gun’s crew, that had been stood too position Y gun trained on the Woosung Forts, on the Yangtze River, in readiness to respond had H.M.S. Amethyst, been fired upon as she was passing that sector on the river.
The shells you see stacked upon the deck are what was the known as Champaign shell’s that type had no need of fuse setting, they exploded on impact, so a good guns crew, could load and fire 15 to 17 a minute. Now try counting the shell’s you see lying on that side of the ship in readiness. Then take into account that the ships main armament had four guns of that ilk that would be stood too in readiness with that type of fire power
Add to this the fact that Concord, had on-board twin and single boffer secondary armament, all of which would have been at the ready to come in to play, by order the rules were laid down an were being obeyed, by a ships compliment at the ready to compete in the rigours of war.
From the time of H.M.S. Concord, slipping from alongside H.M.S. Amethyst, allowing both ships to get underway it took 47 minutes before they met up with the other ships of the fleet that were waiting at sea outside of the Yangste Estuary, and from where Lieutenant Commander Kearns, sent that famous signal a copy of which is being shown here. It is of course one of the signals that can be found among the papers and naval signals of Rear Admiral Sir Peter Scott, which were deposited within the Churchill College Archives.
Upon escorting H.M.S. Amethyst, out of the Yangtze River and Estuary, H.M.S. Concord was stopped by H.M.S. Cossack, and boarded by Captain D. who took the ships log of H.M.S. Concord, out of commission, and thereafter sent H.M.S. Concord, on patrol off the North China coast.
To conclude; when Commander Kearns, wrote the foreword to Lawrence Earls, 1952 publication, “Yangtze Incident” he is seen to state in the last paragraph of that foreword, “Most of us who took part in the action which has become known as the Yangtze Incident of 1949 are now separated and will go our devious ways in civilian life or in the Service.”
I wonder was this little item below bearing heavily on his mind at that time?
When I personally read into the implication that exist in that part of the telegram marked (c) the names of two modern day Judases, of H.B.M. Ambassador, Sir Ralph Stevenson’s ilk comes to mind one is MoD., Minister, Mr Ainsworth, and the other is the Naval Secretary, Mr Spear.